Nursing U's Podcast
Nursing U is a podcast co-hosted by Julie and Caleb. We embark on an educational journey to redefine nursing within the modern healthcare landscape.
Our mission is to foster an open and collaborative environment where learning knows no bounds, and every topic—no matter how taboo—is explored with depth and sincerity. We delve into the essence of nursing, examining the intimate and often complex relationships between nurses and their patients amidst suffering and death.
Through our discussions, we aim to highlight the psychological impacts of nursing and caregiving, not only on the caregivers themselves but also on the healthcare system at large.
Our goal is to spark conversations that pave the way for healing and innovation in healthcare, ensuring the well-being of future generations.
'Nursing U' serves as a platform for examining the state of modern civilization through the lens of nursing, tackling issues that range from violence, drugs, and sex to family, compassion and love. We will utilize philosophy, religion and science to provide context and deeper understanding to the topics we tackle.
By seamlessly weaving humor with seriousness, we create a unique tapestry of learning, drawing wisdom from the experiences of elders and the unique challenges faced in nursing today.
Join us at 'Nursing U,' where we cultivate a community eager to explore the transformative power of nursing, education, and conversation in shaping a more whole and healthier world."
Disclaimer:
The hosts of 'Nursing U', Julie Reif and Caleb Schraeder are registered nurses; however, the content provided in this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only. Nothing shared on this podcast should be considered medical advice nor should it be used to diagnose or treat any medical condition. Always seek the guidance of your doctor or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition or health concerns. The views expressed on this podcast are personal opinions and do not represent the views of our employers or our professional licensing bodies.
Nursing U's Podcast
Ep #009 PT 2 - Reviving Passion: Overcoming Administrative Burdens in Nursing with Brandy Falconer
What if the administrative burdens in healthcare and education could be radically minimized, reigniting passion for professionals in both fields? This episode of Nursing U promises to shed light on this very possibility. We explore the significance of building trust within the healthcare system, particularly in the aftermath of COVID-19, and how administrative processes often stifle the creativity and critical thinking essential for effective caregiving. By drawing parallels to the education sector, we uncover shared struggles and discuss how both nurses and educators can navigate and surmount these common challenges.
As we delve into the transformative potential of AI in education and healthcare, we address the critical balance between technological advancements and the irreplaceable human elements such as creativity, adaptability, and accountability. AI offers exciting prospects for automating routine tasks, but what happens to the qualitative outcomes when profit-driven decision-making takes precedence? We highlight the need for a balanced approach that leverages AI while preserving the indispensable human touch that professionals bring to their roles.
Our final discussions tackle the emotional and mental tolls faced by nurses and the urgent need for systemic change. We share practical advice on empowering nurses to recognize their value and advocate for better working conditions, emphasizing the importance of supportive management. Through personal stories and actionable tips, we encourage nurses to rediscover their passion for the profession. Join us in this episode as we reimagine a future where healthcare professionals are not only resilient but also genuinely supported in their vital roles. Stay curious, nurture your connections, and always be kind to yourself.
Two things One is shorter and not very complex, but you know, our, our, one of our taglines is, you know, redefining the modern landscape of nursing and, and I feel like you know, like you, know we're we're, we're giving our care in all of these conversations that we're doing which is a different way of providing care for people, and I see that in what you're, I see like your passion and your vision for helping young nurses is redefining caregiving.
Speaker 2:Hi, I'm Julie.
Speaker 1:And I'm Caleb. Welcome to Nursing U, the podcast where we redefine nursing in today's healthcare landscape. Join Julie and I as we step outside the box on an unconventional healing journey.
Speaker 2:Together, we're diving deep into the heart of nursing, exploring the intricate relationships between caregivers and patients with sincerity and depth.
Speaker 1:Our mission is to create an open and collaborative experience where learning is expansive and fun.
Speaker 2:From the psychological impacts of nursing to the larger implications on the healthcare system. We're sparking conversations that lead to healing and innovation.
Speaker 1:We have serious experience and we won't pull our punches. But we'll also weave in some humor along the way, because we all know laughter is often the best medicine.
Speaker 2:It is, and we won't shy away from any topic, taboo or not, from violence and drugs to family and love, we're tackling it all.
Speaker 1:Our nursing knowledge is our base, but we will be bringing insights from philosophy, religion, science and art to deepen our understanding of the human experience.
Speaker 2:So, whether you're a nurse, a healthcare professional or just someone curious about the world of caregiving, this podcast is for you.
Speaker 1:One last thing, a quick disclaimer before we dive in. While we're both registered nurses, nothing we discuss here should be taken as medical advice. Always consult with your doctor or a qualified healthcare provider for any medical concerns you may have. The views expressed here are our own and don't necessarily reflect those of our employers or licensing bodies.
Speaker 2:So let's get started on this journey together. Welcome to Nursing U, where every conversation leads to a healthier world.
Speaker 1:Like you're perfectly aligned with what we're doing. It's awesome, yeah, so bravo. I love it, yeah. Yeah, the other thing that kind of has come up a couple of times through the conversation is the general mistrust of the public of health care that you know, covid especially. You know it really divided society into. You know, you know people who I trust science. Like like you can't trust science. Like like science is a method.
Speaker 3:You need to trust well-defined quantitative or qualitative results that have been replicated many, many, many, many, many many times.
Speaker 1:That's when we go to the trusted phase, not in phase one, Right right, right, and so people landed either I trust science, which is kind of a misnomer in my mind because it's a method, and then, on the other side, the fundamental distrust of you know, because all these systems are so siloed, when you guys were talking about, when you're talking through, like, all of the different processes of administration, every like, even the ceo, has really no final say. You know they are answering to someone else, like everyone's answering to somewhere, someone else, so everything is kind of disjointed and nothing can change. Of course, and and I think that people I've heard people, I've had people tell me they they would, they would rather die than go into a hospital because they don't trust it. And you know, of course, when that statement actually you know when the river actually hits the road and they're in a crisis, of course they're there yeah.
Speaker 1:But what I'm talking about is the fundamental mistrust, and to me it almost it seems like, you know, we've been kind of in a mini series I don't know if you've gotten to the episode the last three episodes which are talking kind of through left brain, right brain functions, and to me all of this stuff that we're describing is very, very right brain, reason, logic, structure and no creative left brain. I think I've got those right, yeah opposite yeah.
Speaker 2:Left brain critical thinking, right brain creative yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay. So how do we like? I think the question that I'm getting to is, how do we, how can we get that, shift it from that fully reasoned logic, like because we are doing the dance, we are in that space like we've talked about, when we're in a critical situation and you use humor to break the ice, and then everything, all of the logic is restored and the crisis is kind of the tension has been broken so you can move forward in a in a meaningful way.
Speaker 3:Like, how do we look at the there's? There's some current series going on in education about how we have education has piled so many things onto educators and I'm talking primarily your pre-k through fifth grade educators at this point and they've started looking at middle school a little bit but this what we're currently talking about is these grade school guys. We have put so many kids in the classroom because we have more kids, not enough educators, not enough resources. Right, sounds very similar to nursing, and we have removed the educators ability to change assignments, to create things, to be creative and find those new ways to teach their students. And they're starting to see educators leave in droves, like nurses have, because they're only at survival. Now, yeah, the difference being they started in a world that was built and fostered their creativity, started in a world that was built and fostered their creativity. We unfortunately did not, because when we got into it, the system was already set up and it runs the way it is, but I mean, there was still some creativity in this.
Speaker 1:Like our hands weren't tied when it came to patient care. The objective was caring for the patient. Now the objective is I have to have my IVs documented at. The documentation of the process that I've just performed is more important than performing the process.
Speaker 3:And that's the invent of the EHR, because it was. If you look at the history of the EHR, it's set up as a billing program first and every single one of those checks that you click has a code tied to it that has a charge tied to it. That a billing and coding person no longer has to read a chart and pull all of those out, it's done automatically. So that's where the EHR come from. It wasn't for us, it wasn't for charting, and instead of hiring a billing encoder who can go through that chart and kind of find some of the nuances, that weight was put on the nurse. Now, instead of clicking three checkboxes, I need you to click that you put a 20 gauge, you put it in the right forearm, that you got flash, that it flushed well, that the patient tolerated, that you put a clear dressing on it, that you put a J loop on it, that you typed it down, that you did just all like the check boxes. Instead of 20 gauge IV, right forearm, which is what we used to write right Became 47 clicks.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And so, again, that's more stuff. It's sit on the nurse and taken away. You know we don't have billing encoders like we used to. Right, it's a different process than it used to be. So why would we pay nurses and billing encoders when I can just make the nurse do it by making her use this electronic health record, and then I only have to pay the nurse and I don't have to pay the billing encoder and voila, I've saved $40,000 a year or whatever the sound Right.
Speaker 1:So take us back to the educational system. I kind of interrupted like I do feel like there was a more creative process or more free process of providing critical nursing care in the emergency room in the ICU. It was just more free and that statement came up from what you were saying about the hands of teachers being tied.
Speaker 3:And so they're experiencing the same thing. So, you know, most of them used to have a planning period and most of them used to have like a return week. And most of them used to have a planning period and most of them used to have like a return week and most of them used to have support resources and all of those things over time are just being dwindled very much like nursing. Resources are just being dwindled and more and more and more sits on that teacher and so now she is only on the logical how do I logistically get things done? And not thinking about how can I creatively teach these students to learn what they need to learn? And we see this reflected in. Well, I think standardized exams are. That's a whole nother podcast.
Speaker 3:But, we see this reflected in knowledge that our students currently have when they graduate.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Because everybody just survives. Everybody passes Everybody. If, like my child's school right now, if she did not one single bit of work she would get a 50%, she would not fail with a zero.
Speaker 2:Right, she would get 50%. Wow.
Speaker 3:And so we are just compensating, and compensating, and pushing, and pushing, and, pushing and pushing, and we are removing that creativity so that every student learns, instead of just the ones that learn this way. Yeah Right, we're one approach and we're hoping that all 40 of those students in the classroom can learn from that one approach. Yeah, and common sense would tell me it doesn't work like that, because those 40 kids aren't the same.
Speaker 1:I mean I just I just heard someone say recently that they anticipate teachers to really just be, you know, overseeing AI, that the AI will be replacing teachers sooner. That's one of the first venues for AI to really knock jobs down is that the teachers will just be there supervising children, whereas the actual educational apparatus will be executed by AI.
Speaker 3:If you think logically about it, if we use Google Classroom and we use Chromebooks and we integrate all of this technology, and if all of the lessons and the PowerPoints and all of those things are put online and the teacher is not going to actually tailor the lecture to the 40 students she has in front of her, why couldn't it? My question then becomes what's the product result of that? Yeah, and it's exactly what we have now. We have order set nurses who go down the list and follow the things whether they make sense or not, whether they're applicable to their patient or not. We're going to end up with students who do the things they need to do to get the piece of paper they get, and they're not going to have the knowledge that we are assuming they have.
Speaker 3:If you graduated high school, if you graduate high school, I assume you have X amount of knowledge. You're not going to have that because you just went through the motions and there was nobody who inspired you or held you accountable or who was creative in figuring out that. You know, I don't learn by listening to you. You can yak at me all day long, and but if you want to throw me into her and let me do it, then I probably can catch on pretty quick. So we're ai is going to replace all that stuff and we're going to see a a net product loss. I, because they're coming at it with the goal of replacing the teachers instead of can I take away some of those mundane, routine, logical tasks that give them the time and space to then be creative with what they're doing, to engage students so that they learn.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that would be the best. I mean, you know, because AI can be adaptive and I think there are a lot of positive aspects to it and it can. It can bring a lot of I don't know elements whatever you want to say to it but but getting those tasks off the teacher would allow her to use her creativity and make sure that this type of AI was working for this kid or maybe he needed to do this, or maybe he needs more hands on this and she's more of like an overseer to adapt the adaption, you know, the adaptive AI that she would be able to oversee that using those modalities, the people who are making these decisions are not looking at it.
Speaker 3:One of your episodes talked about the qualitative value that a nurse brings, and it can't be measured.
Speaker 1:It can't be measured.
Speaker 3:There's some qualitative researchers out there that say that we could get pretty close to the value of that. The astronomical undertaking that that would be would be. That's probably where your impossibility lies, not that you couldn't get to a number or a value.
Speaker 2:You could have you ever? Have you ever read about Brene Brown and how she has done a lot of research on emotions and things like that? So I I believe that it could, you could get there Like you're saying. Could you could get there like you're saying, technically you could, it would be huge, it would be astronomical and that's where your possibility lies.
Speaker 3:So if we're looking at those things, that can't have a value. But the people who do those jobs ie nurses and ie teachers we know there is a significant value attached to that. But the people who are making these decisions are not doing the job. It is expense profit. Yes, and AI costs me this much and Professor Falconer costs me this much. They're not considering the value. That doesn't have a number attached to it because it cannot go on their spreadsheet.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:So those people who are making those decisions aren't considering that, nor are they considering anything past the budget. They're not considering the sequelae that are going to come when we remove that educator and replace it with AI. What's my product on the outside going to look like? Nor do they care. Their job is that Excel budget sheet and that's it, and that's the problem. People who make these decisions in education or healthcare are not required to care. As long as it balances and there's this many in P and profit and this much in loss, Like that's that's it.
Speaker 1:I mean I, I, I just I push back on the idea that they don't care, like I. I think that there's, I think that I think there are. There are for sure malicious people out there, absolutely there's no question about it, but I don't think so many are intentionally trying, intentionally disregarding.
Speaker 2:I don't think it's disregard.
Speaker 3:I don't I don't think it's disregard and I don't think it's that they don't necessarily care, but everyone is smart enough to know that if my job is to manage the PNL on this spread, this spreadsheet, and that's the requirement, and I start pushing back and I start stepping out of that boundary, say, yeah, I would like the losses to be a little bit less, but we need to consider all of these qualitative factors that occur. What is the system going to do to them? Pull them out and replace them with somebody who will do it. So their survival isn't necessarily that they don't care, but their paycheck, their families, their ability to take care of their kids means that they're in this box.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that's. I think that's hurting them. Yeah, I don't think it's really that they actually don't care or that they're trying to be malicious. I think that they are also in a box, in a constraint, and that's part of their job, just like nurses. It's part of their job to manage that loss versus reward or P&L, all of that, and I think that they are also. Their hands are tied, and so you will and we are.
Speaker 2:we never mean everyone always always we don't ever always mean that that doesn't exist.
Speaker 2:No, there are lots and lots of managers who try and who make it seem like to the nurses, to the people on the floor, to the staff. I was one of them, that that you, because I did care, I do care, but the you have to be very crafty to exude that to your people and abide by the rules of your job, which is you better make money or don't spend so much. You actually have nothing to spend. So or we're not hiring anymore, so make do with what you have and I, or a manager or you know whatever, has to take that and and not make the people who work for them think that's what's going on. They have to have a piece of I don't care because otherwise they couldn't do a job like me. I couldn't take the care out of it because I cared way too much. Out of it because I cared way too much. You know there are managers who they do care, but yet behind the scenes they are doing things or won't allow certain things because they are going to keep their job and they can't.
Speaker 3:they're put in a system that is designed for men to keep them navigating the way they are to navigate. And it's not that if you, if you went to any unit manager in, throw a dart, pick a hospital, pick a UNAS, you could go to that manager and you could say, if I could give you unlimited staffing, unlimited help, got it, there's none of them. They're going to be like no, I'll turn it down.
Speaker 2:I'll take the credit.
Speaker 3:We're going to be like no, I'll turn it down, I'll take the credit and then we're going to make that decision, yeah, yeah. But in turn it becomes you're put here and so I guess when we look at P&L the people that are making the decisions they're in the exact same boat. We are, yeah.
Speaker 1:Which kind of takes me back to the question of how do we get it moving in a direction where there's proper communication? I mean, I don't.
Speaker 3:Can you get it moving in a direction without breaking it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know. I don't know.
Speaker 2:Because I mean you just go all the way to the top of the pyramid and it's that. It's that it's the two playing golf making decisions as to what hospital or what insurance companies they're going to use or how much you know, whatever. I mean it's it. Or how out of the box can you think to try to get more out of Medicare or get more reimbursement or have more problems, or you know all of that. It it's just, it's sick when you really think about it, because when you really are the nurse at the bedside, a human taking care of another human, it it's. It's very hard to even allow our minds to think that it might actually be that way. Right, it's just hard to do the job.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:An unfortunate reality, and so I would say that for me. That's what made me decide I can't fix this system. Yeah, there is no power that I can gain, no credential, no fancy education. No, there is nothing available out there for me to obtain that changes this system, unless I've got, like some healthcare conglomerate long lost uncle that I don't know about and he's going to leave it to me Like that's probably the closest to a real possibility I got.
Speaker 3:So the only other way that I've seen that is effective is I have to change the people that are working in it. And if the nursing workforce is 3 million people give or take, and 2.6 of these 3 million people are unwilling to work at your facility because this one does it better or this one does it better, then it's just like everything else supply and demand. It will will change. Yeah, we have to be okay. Demanding it first, right, we have to see the value in demanding it first and not just take ownership of anything.
Speaker 3:That happens is a failure on my part, as if you have any control over any of it right right right, all responsibility, no authority, and that's what you gotta remember here and so yeah I don't know how else to change it without the system breaking itself. And and I truly thought there for a little bit maybe covid was gonna do that, was gonna highlight and do that, and that bubble was wildly popped when it went right back to status quo, if not worse than status quo.
Speaker 2:If anything, it's worse. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:I mean.
Speaker 2:I think, you know we're. I feel like we're doing pretty much the same thing, which is educating people to know that it's not their fault, that they're not the failure, that you need to be in a mental place, healthy and knowledgeable to to know, and you know that you're you're choosing to do that.
Speaker 2:It's not being done to you. So therefore, you do get to choose where you work, you do get to choose what unit you're on. You do have a choice. And so education and then just helping people understand their value, that you're not just in a system and you're not just a cattle being. You know you're not. You are a nurse, you're very smart, you have feelings. It all means something. Yes, are you crying at work? That means something. You come home and you yell at your kids or all you want to do is sleep? That means something you know. And so you're kind of preparing the people who are coming into the field, and you know we want to help with that, but also then educate people who are already in the field, who feel like they are helpless.
Speaker 2:Who feel like they there is nothing, and you know. So they quit, which you know we don't need everybody to quit either, which you know we don't need everybody to quit either, you know. We just need to figure out how to help them, help the ones that are already in it, to try and just have a different perception of it so that they, so that we can continue to make these small changes.
Speaker 3:And so when either one of you went to nursing school, you were taught how to be a nurse. Right, we were all taught how to be a nurse. Where did anybody have any education on how to deal with being a nurse?
Speaker 2:Right, no, that's what we're doing.
Speaker 1:I mean, that is what we're doing.
Speaker 3:And this is where we're at now is. There is no other way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not just the skills, it's how to navigate this healthcare system that is here and you know, like I said, our lifetime it's not going to change. There might be small things and your situation. You may be able to improve your own situation, but the overall system is not going to really change.
Speaker 3:Not until we reach enough people that have their own situations right, that those people who make those decisions can no longer say we'll just give that duty to the nurse, she'll figure it out, because nurses are no longer just gonna figure it out, you're just not going to have any nurses.
Speaker 1:And it's a. It's a, it's a problem that, like, is compounded by the fact, you know, COVID was just a like. You know, I kind of I think I've used the analogy it's like rolling through the foothills towards a mountain of death. Like we have the largest population that is approaching death, you know, any of us on the planet have ever experienced, and so it's an inverted relationship. Nurses are peeling off, they're killing themselves or leaving the bedside, and the mountain is getting closer and we're looking at all, you know, all the baby boom generation, that who's going to be there for them? Like that's terrifying.
Speaker 3:Those that do make it, and they are there when it happens. What's the likelihood they stay?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you can only do it for so long. You know, when you're working short staff like that because they're in a hiring freeze and you don't have enough nurses, you can only do that for so long and and and then you're just you know, then they'll keep hiring and that's why you keep getting younger and younger, and younger. And the six month nurse is training the new nurse. That that's exactly how and why that happens. And you know the public I don't really think, know exactly all of this that goes on either. You know they think they come to a hospital and they're going to get this high quality standard of care and and it's expected, and they can complain and they're going to get their way and they're always right. And you know, whatever it's just it's an, it's an impossible situation sometimes for these new nurses and and and and older nurses who, who don't, who haven't realized their value, to say no and to do things differently.
Speaker 3:And even those patients who don't trust the hospitals, even those patients who have this mistrust. If you look at what it is they don't trust or why they don't trust, it's still the wrong reasons because, they don't have the information that those who live in the system, because we don't tell our patients.
Speaker 2:Right, you're not allowed to.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, you're not allowed to Go into the room and say, hey, the reason that you're waiting three and a half hours is because there's literally two of us in the building and there are 130 of you guys. We are like we're not allowed to say that so we cannot reveal the wizard behind the curtain. That's how you get these folks who think that nurses are intentionally killing people or not taking care of them and letting them die of COVID, or this nurse was malicious and did this. That's nobody gets into nursing to be malicious. I mean, I'm sure there are a couple outliers out there. There are, but the overwhelming majority of us don't go into it with that intent. So even those people who have healthcare mistrust when specifically we're talking about they don't trust nurses because nurses are killing patients on purpose or not doing things to people on purpose. That's often not true either.
Speaker 1:I think the mistrust is more rooted in the abuse of science. We watched the news cycle yo-yo on whether or not milk is good for you, or chicken or eggs.
Speaker 1:And that's definitely an abuse of science, because you don't teach the general public has about what can be trusted in medical science is has has permeated such a deep level that it's almost inescapable. For I think it's like that that is really rooted in the in the object, the debate between objectivity and subjectivity. In my mind it is. It is rooted in my mistrust of the healthcare system. And just like you can't trust, like you just get to the point where you throw your hands up and say I can't trust the information that's coming out of this system.
Speaker 3:Well, and in some cases you can't right. So the CDC is touted as this organization that is having the public's general interest in mind, but is also the same organization that told me I could wear a bandana for an airborne disease. Right, right, right. So all of science can be manipulated, data can be manipulated, statistics can be manipulated. Only this part is pulled out and there's no general public education on how to truly evaluate that right.
Speaker 3:So if I look at this research article that was funded by craft, milk is great, right yeah the healthiest thing on the planet no side effects, drink all you want and in the same scenario, you can pull from the same study and the same data, but funded by somebody who I don't know makes orange juice, minute Maid, whatever. Now, milk is terrible and you can't drink it all the time.
Speaker 1:So it's claiming to be objective, but in reality it's's what.
Speaker 3:That's what you're saying I'm saying that when you look at research the overwhelming majority of the research that the lay public has access to let's face it, we're all using google, okay. You would have to then have the education or the research background to evaluate this study. One who is it funded by? Two, what method did they use? Is it method? Did they follow that method? And in their results, are they tying it back to the actual question they're asking? And in their discussion, is it informing that question from an objective standpoint? Right, and most people don't even read a whole research study because a lot of it tedious. There's a bunch of stuff in there that nobody wants to read, unless you're a nerd like, yeah, you'll love this stuff, right? So how do you, how do you trust a system that can be manipulated and is manipulated based on funding because the money like if craft's paying me to do a study on milk, well, milk's gonna be great because otherwise correct is it gonna pay me for the right to be on milk?
Speaker 3:yeah so to get that truly objective research is often done in the free realm.
Speaker 3:It's done by students or people who work at universities, who solicit funding through unbiased organizations, where the results are the results are the results.
Speaker 3:The problem that you run into there is, if you want to publish open access to where anybody has the ability to look at your research, it may cost you anywhere from $4,000 to $15,000 just to have it distributed out there. So you want to pay me $40,000 or $50,000 as an educator, and then you want to charge me $4,000 to $15,000 to put this on a network that anybody has access to. So most of this research that doesn't make it to the public eye is behind paywalls, and even the stuff that does make it typically has a slant, because why wouldn't Kraft want to put it out there on every platform they can get it on, and so there's really good science out there, but we don't teach people how to navigate that world or how to evaluate what is good and what's not, and so they. They may see this on the news this day and this on the news the next day, and that's all they have to go by. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So how could, how could you expect them to trust?
Speaker 1:that, yeah, exactly yeah.
Speaker 3:There's no way.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So and if you're looking at somebody who does this for a living, sometimes it's still even hard for me to figure out are we missing parts and pieces here? Yeah, how was this done? So how would somebody who doesn't do it for a living be able to navigate that world? Yeah, so I mean it goes deep. It's it a rough it's a rough world out there, especially trying to learn, and you don't have any skillset or background or formal education or informal education on how to do it. What you have access to is even controlled.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:How do you get past that? That's why you see no good, no bad, no good, no bad.
Speaker 2:That's why it works that way well, I'm so glad that we had you on. This was so good. It makes me so excited about just the rest of it, like what's going on? Where is this going?
Speaker 1:I'm curious to hear because, Brandy, you're the first person that we've had access to that has listened to the podcasts what are your takeaways from the work that you've watched already, the content that you've watched, and how can we make it better?
Speaker 3:What is really evident and I know, Caleb, we've had this conversation right we're going to save the world. So, in the way that you guys are presenting this information, that's what it feels like. So there is a sense of Caleb and Julie are going to figure out how to save the world, right, so there's some sort of I guess the feeling that was instilled was hopeful, Because in my head I'm thinking, if I could just let these two make decisions, I could go back to the bedside until they kick me in my walker out, Like that could be my dream again.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 3:Right, that's what your podcast feels like. Listen to it.
Speaker 3:Wow, that was like if I could just let these two? How do I get them carte blanche? How do I do that? Who do I talk to, who do I need permission from? And just have at it. I think the one critique that you could probably start included would be what are those steps? So we talk about the things and we talk about what it feels like, and we talk about the journeys that you have, but what are the steps, the tangible things that people who are listening could do to start on the path that you guys have been on? Talk about the big obstacles that you've overcome, but not necessarily. How did you take the step one?
Speaker 2:So that's funny. You say that because I listened to the last episode that we did and whatever we were talking about, it was like we were. I was talking about this mess, like it just left us in a mess and some of the things that we had dealt with, and it was a mess. And I texted Caleb and I said I think our next podcast should be how do we clean? How did we start to clean up that mess?
Speaker 3:What did we?
Speaker 2:actually do. Super, super, super. Interesting that you said that, because that that it feels natural to go that way. So like bringing up something, talking about it, and whether we enter into it in that particular podcast or we go onto the next one. That that, how, then? Because I know, like when I'm listening to a podcast, I do want to know like, so maybe each one we could do like. So here's some takeaways so you could do like this and like the last one I know, remember, caleb, I kind of went off on that. You just gotta be just notice, just if you can do anything, just start noticing and you know the little little things. So that is super good feedback.
Speaker 3:Yep, that's, that's the one thing that I wish. So, so I have more of a history of Caleb's journey, just because I know him. But I was thinking to myself if I was happy if this was an interactive thing. The question I would ask would be okay, julie, how did we know we got to stop drinking? How did we know? And then, how did we do it? What was step one? It's not necessarily that it has to be your particular thing, but what are the things that we can give to these nurses that exist in this world already to help get them where they need to be? What's tangible? What can I say to my manager, somebody who's been a manager?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:What can I say to convey what I need?
Speaker 2:yeah, we're not taught to do that yeah, yeah ever, ever, like I.
Speaker 3:I remember, after my sister was killed and she died in the very ER that I worked, in.
Speaker 1:I mean that's a crazy story, like I mean I I feel like, yeah, brandy's story is incredible.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I came back to work the next week, wow. And I will never forget the manager who pulled me into her office and she looked at me and she's like what are you doing here?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm like I got to come back to work Like this is what I got to do, I got people to take care of. I got to come back to work Like this is what I got to do. I got people to take care of, I got a team that needs me. Like it's not like you have extra staff running around. Yeah, and just just that mentality that exists that I could never take more than a week off after I buried my 18 year old sister because this hospital system needs me. Yeah, and why is it so dependent? And she's. She's like you don't get out of my ER immediately and I will call you when you can come back.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you will stay gone until I say you can come back.
Speaker 3:You will stay gone until I say you can come back. And had I had any other manager on the planet who wasn't a fully tight manager, they would have just said okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And then who knows how the sequelae could have unfolded from that.
Speaker 1:Right Right, right right.
Speaker 2:Well, that's how they're bred, that's how, that's how that's the environment that you know, unless you have the outliers, who are, you know, outlier thinkers, or you know, they're just there's a few, but the majority just follow suit and they're not. They've never been a manager before, or they've. They're not even a nurse, or you know what I mean, and it's just like that. That is the expectation for these nurses to just come back. There's no mental health. There's no like I get it. It's more like do you know that you've been late? You've clocked in, or you clocked in 10 minutes early or late, like you get in trouble because you clock in too early, you know, and yeah, those are the kind of things and so it's the hospitals then take these nurses from these schools and then they breed they. They breed them because they're going.
Speaker 2:Their breeders were bred by having to follow what is important, what we care about, what you can and about what you can and cannot do, what you can and cannot say Don't talk about that, don't do that, don't talk about her. That's not. You know all, all of it, and it just, it just. You know, when you, I, I, picked up a unit and it was, it had just been bread bad the nurses who were teaching the other nurses. It was so toxic and emotionally toxic it was. It was literally terrible and I tried my best to try to like figure it out and and it was I mean that was part of my demise is is trying being put in that situation to have to try to do something about it rather than just let these bitches run the unit. And if you think about it.
Speaker 3:Educators bred students that way, right? I don't know how many students I've had in clinical, but I can tell you how many colors of socks I have not checked and the answer is none. I don't care what color socks are, yeah, right.
Speaker 2:None of that matters socks are yeah Right.
Speaker 3:None of that matters, but I would say that in education I'm the exception. Yeah, I would press uniform. They want white socks. I expect this. This here is this box that I'm putting you and I expect you to be in it and perform, and white socks in clinical for nursing education is the same thing as that stupid whiteboard in the clinical practice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's almost like a deterrent, like they're. They're trying to deter nurses from feeling, thinking, seeing, experiencing what actually is going on. Yes, by pointing to this and this and this and this and this and this, there is the most narcissistic relationship.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and this and this and there is the most narcissistic relationship you will ever be in. Yeah, it is. It really is. There is the most narcissistic relationship you will ever be in. And let me tell you, their gaslighting skills are top notch yeah, god, and that's why so many.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's why you know not every nurse who is gaslit by the healthcare system is going to commit suicide, but you don't know who who will. You don't know that. You know if you're that particular time that they're reprimanded isn't going to be that time that they're just like I'm not worth anything, Even if they don't get to the point of suicide.
Speaker 3:The journey along the way impacts who they are, how they are and how they care for people. So even if they're never pushed to that point, they're going to leave or the things that they do are going to have that negative impact or negative connotation. There's no escaping that being a negative thing, even if they don't get to the point of suicide. It's negative along the way the whole thing start to finish and it is.
Speaker 3:I don't know of another way to fix it other than empowering nurses yeah to speak up and say something about it Because, like everything in healthcare, nothing is going to change unless the nurse does it. Right, yeah, that is so true, I mean really.
Speaker 1:Isn't that what we're all three doing here? Yeah, brandy, you and your way, you're just okay. I see the problem. I'm going to do my little part to fix it. Yeah, to the point where we're just picking it up and okay, we're going to do this as I have said, healthcare and emergency medicine became.
Speaker 3:This was just something that I don't think I could have loved anything more. This system changed it to be unrecognizable to where I had no problem walking away from it, which is something I thought.
Speaker 2:I would never be able to do Same same same. I could have never not see myself be ICU. I mean, I was I could, I would have done it. I would have done it. I just would have done it Forever. Yeah, it just.
Speaker 3:You had to walk her off the unit. Yeah, exactly how it would have been, yeah, and so I just I don't know of another way, yeah, other than changing those that are going into it to not accept.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:This yeah. You don't have to accept this. This is what your value is, and I just literally tell them show me a hospital in the country that doesn't need a nurse. Yeah, oh wait, go ahead, google away, look. Yeah, that's what your value is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, demand it yeah, demand your value yeah, demand it, they'll pay it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's gonna be painful, trust me, and you may have to figure out how to find that unit, or how to find that hospital, or how to find that clinic, or how to find that outpatient, this or whatever it is. You do because not it's going to be a needle in the haystack right now, but if enough of us keep doing it, it will not be a needle in the haystack right now, but if enough of us keep doing it, it will not be a needle in the haystack anymore.
Speaker 2:There will be the standouts, there will be the places that then now have become like this is where you want to work. This is the environment that we want. This is what we demand. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And nursing is a small world. The word will get out.
Speaker 2:Well, this was awesome, so awesome, it was cool.
Speaker 1:I love you both so much, so much.
Speaker 3:You know, I love your face, I love your face, oh man. Never in my life been more fortunate to have a vote on who gets to join our PACU team than our vote for Caleb.
Speaker 1:It was pretty awesome the way that they interviewed me my first nursing job back after going through tremendous crisis and rock bottom. I was very honest with where I was coming from. It was the whole team, everyone that worked in that PACU. They set up horseshoe style. They set up all the chairs. I came in, I sat down and it was the entire team that I'd be working with. They all asked me questions and we just had the best time. I said I'm scared. It's been a long time since I've practiced and you know, I think my I think the thing that I said was the. My number one concern is that you won't let me hurt someone. I'm out of practice and I need you to walk me back into this and make sure that I'm safe.
Speaker 3:That is exactly what he said.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was just terrified because, well, I mean, julie was there, you know, she was there when I, when the doctor abandoned me and and I lost that patient, and I lost my confidence that I was capable of caring that I was capable of nursing. Yeah, it destroyed me. Um so, and that really informs. I mean, brandy, you know the whole story. I told you probably some late night in the PACU, yeah.
Speaker 3:Three in the morning. We're waiting on a hot happy to come out and we're just like what in the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah right, those are some of the best times, though, oh great.
Speaker 2:So great, yeah, so great.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so great. It was very refreshing to have somebody who was wildly aware of where they were. And let me tell you he under-promised and over-delivered. Yeah, he got right back on that bicycle Like it was nothing.
Speaker 1:It really was remarkable.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he made it seem like we were going to be over there, like this is a patient Caleb Right, it was. It was very cool to witness that, getting back on the bicycle and seeing how natural it was for him and how just this is what you're supposed to do, man. This is what you're supposed to do, and that evolutionary journey of just coming back into it In a way that doesn't break you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's great. That's great, it's cool and.
Speaker 3:I'm beyond honored to have been a part of it. That's nice. A very small part, but Big part, big part.
Speaker 1:We hope you've enjoyed this week's episode.
Speaker 2:Remember, the conversation doesn't end here.
Speaker 1:Keep the dialogue going by connecting with us on social media posted in the links below or by visiting our website.
Speaker 2:Together, let's continue to redefine nursing and shape a brighter future for those we care for. Until next time, take care, stay curious and keep nurturing those connections.
Speaker 1:Don't forget to be kind to yourself.